Difference between revisions of "Jeyne Westerling/Theories"

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[[Jeyne Westerling]], the daughter of Lady [[Sybell Spicer]] and Lord [[Gawen Westerling]], marries [[Robb Stark]] after he has been crowned [[King in the North]].{{Ref|asos|14}} They try to become pregnant, as Robb's younger brothers [[Bran Stark|Bran]] and [[Rickon Stark|Rickon]] are believed to have been killed by [[Theon Greyjoy]],{{fact}} his sister [[Sansa Stark|Sansa]] is in the custody of Robb's [[House Lannister|enemies]]{{fact}} and his sister [[Arya Stark|Arya]] is missing and believed to be dead.{{fact}}
  
== Switched ==
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Jeyne does not conceive before Robb leaves for the [[Twins]] for the wedding of his uncle, Lord [[Edmure Tully]]. Robb is killed at the Twins during the [[Red Wedding]], after which Ser [[Jaime Lannister]] travels to [[Riverrun]] to lift the [[siege of Riverrun]]. Inside the castle, he comes face to face with Jeyne and her mother, who declares to have worked together with Lord [[Tywin Lannister]].{{fact}}
Many fans note that the descriptions of Jeyne from [[Catelyn Tully]]'s POV<ref name="Catelyn14">[[A Storm of Swords]], [[A Storm of Swords-Chapter 14|Chapter 14]], Catelyn</ref> where she is described as having with good hips, whereas [[Jaime Lannister]]'s POV<ref name="Jaime44">[[A Feast for Crows]], [[A Feast for Crows-Chapter 44|Chapter 44]], Jaime</ref> describe her as having narrow hips. This led fans to believe that the real [[Jeyne Westerling]] was replaced by an impostor. When Jaime meets with [[Sybell Spicer]], Jeyne is the only daughter present, leading some to believe that her younger sister [[Elenya Westerling]] was substituted for her. It is speculated that the real Jeyne may have remained at Riverrun pretending to be a low-born maid or that she may have escaped with [[Brynden Tully]], the Blackfish.
 
  
:While Eleyna isn't explicitly mentioned in [[Jaime Lannister]]'s POV,<ref name="Jaime44">[[A Feast for Crows]]</ref> her absence isn't noted either, despite three of Lady Sybell's children being expected to be there. Also, Eleyna is only twelve at the time, and soon before Red Wedding was still described as a little girl rather than a maid. The girl Jaime met at Riverrun looked to be fifteen or sixteen.
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Discrepancies between descriptions of Jeyne have resulted in speculation among the fandom that Jeyne might not have been the girl who Jaime met at Riverrun. Further speculation covers the possible reasons for such a switch.
  
== Pregnancy ==
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==Identity==
One of the reasons for her possible switch may be her carrying [[Robb Stark]]'s offspring. This is supported by the reveal that she was taking fertility herbs before her parting from Robb. Additionally, Jaime Lannister reveals that as part of the [[House Westerling|Westerling's]] influence in the [[Red Wedding]], Jeyne was promised a good marriage, so they would have no reason to switch her.
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===Supporting evidence===
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The following pieces of information can be considered evidence for this theory:
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*Upon first meeting Jeyne, [[Catelyn Stark]] describes her appearance: "''She was pretty, undeniably, with her chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, [...]''".{{Ref|asos|14}} The description of her hips does not match with [[Jaime Lannister]]s description of Jeyne following the capture of [[Riverrun]] by the Lannister forces: "''Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child [...]''".{{Ref|affc|44}} This difference in description has resulted in the suggestion in the fandom that the girl Jaime meets is not actually Jeyne.
  
:For this to be true her whole family would have been involved, i.e. her father, mother and uncle. For her mother's part, it seems unlikely considering her "fertility potions" were the contrary and she betrayed Robb, this seems a bit farfetched, but it is something that is discussed often on the forums.
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===Counter arguments===
::However, Sybell may have betrayed Robb to the [[House Lannister|Lannisters]], but it is possible that upon learning that Jeyne was pregnant, feared for her daughter's life and that of her unborn grandchild, organized the switch. Additionally, if Brynden Tully took the pregnant Jeyne without the permission of Sybell and her family, she may have lied to Jaime to ensure they did not receive the wrath of the Lannisters.
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The following pieces of information can be considered counter-evidence for this theory:
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*Several indications have been made that the discrepancy in the description of Jeyne's hips was an accidental mistake:
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**At the Union Square Signing in July 2011, [[George R. R. Martin]] reportedly stated that "''the hips were a mistake unfortunately''".<ref>[[So Spake Martin]]: [http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/10068 Union Square Signing (July 14, 2011)]</ref>
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**According to Linda Antonsson, "''George has apparently told people that it's a mistake''".<ref>[http://www.vulture.com/2012/10/influential-fans-the-webmasters-of-westerosorg.html Influential Fan Portrait: Elio García and Linda Antonsson, Webmasters of Game of Thrones’ Westeros.org (October 19, 2012)]</ref>
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**Current editions of ''[[A Feast for Crows]]'' have removed the reference to Jeyne's hips when meeting Jaime entirely, instead changing the passage into "''Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child [...]''". <ref>''imgur.com'': [http://imgur.com/pYnqxeN "Screenshot of recent ''A Feast for Crows'' edition"] (uploaded December 2014)</ref>
  
== Love potion ==
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==Motivation==
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The most frequently used argument for a motivation of switching Jeyne with an importer is the suggestion that she may have discovered she was pregnant after Robb's death.
  
The exact nature of the service Sybell Westerling did for the Lannisters is still unclear. That she set up her daughter with Robb so that his marriage alliance with the [[House Frey|Frey]]s would be broken and the Freys would have a reason to ally with the Lannisters seems likely. As Sybell's grandmother "[[Maggy]]" was a witch, Sybell demonstrated knowledge of herbs by making contraceptives for Jeyne, and love potions were among the things that citizens of [[Lannisport]] went to Maggy for according to [[Cersei]]'s recollection, it is plausible that Sybell knew how to make a love potion and saw to it that Robb was slipped one while Jeyne was tending to his wounds at [[the Crag]].
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===Supporting evidence===
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The following pieces of information can be considered evidence for this theory:
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*According to Jeyne, her mother [[Sybell Spicer|Sybell]] makes a posset for her, consisting of herbs, milk and ale, to help make her fertile.{{Ref|Asos|20}}
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===Counter arguments===
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The following pieces of information can be considered counter-evidence for this theory:
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*According to Lady Sybell, she made certain that Jeyne was not pregnant with Robb's child, on the orders of Lord Tywin Lannister.{{Ref|affc|44}} The mobile application ''[[A World of Ice and Fire]]'' states that Sybell's posset prevented Jeyne from conceiving.{{Ref|awoiaf| Jeyne Westerling}}{{Ref|awoiaf| Sybell Spicer}}
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==Sybell's involvement==
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When exactly [[House Westerling]]'s services against [[House Stark]] came to involve [[House Lannister]] is still unclear. The mobile application states that Sybell and her brother, [[Rolph Spicer]], plot to trick Robb Stark into marrying Jeyne after he seizes the Crag,{{Ref|awoiaf| Sybell Spicer}} by leaving Robb and Jeyne alone as much as possible, hoping "nature will take its course".{{Ref|awoiaf| Jeyne Westerling}} Whether this was done on the instructions of Lord Tywin Lannister, or whether Sybell and Rolph acted on their own and allied with Tywin later, is unknown.
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Fans have further suggested an active involvement of Sybell by providing Robb Stark with a love potion. Sybell's grandmother was "[[Maggy]]", a priestess who used to be visited by half of [[Lannisport]] for "cures and love potions and the like", according to [[Kevan Lannister]].{{Ref|asos|19}} This background, in combination with her demonstrated knowledge of herbs and potions{{Ref|asos|20}}, make it plausible Sybell is aware of how to make a love potion and slipped one to Robb while he was recovering from his wounds at the [[Crag]].
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==References==
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{{references}}
  
==References and Notes==
 
{{references|2}}
 
 
[[Category:Theories]]
 
[[Category:Theories]]

Latest revision as of 21:41, 5 May 2018

 Theories may be removed if ... 
  1. Stated as questions or possibilities.
  2. More appropriate for another article.
  3. Illogical or previously disproven.
  4. Proven by canon source, and moved to main page.
  5. Speculative and lacking any evidence to support arguments.
  6. Responding to another theory (use discussion page instead).
  • This does not include responses that are also standalone theories.
  • Usage of an indented bullet does not imply the statement is a response.

Jeyne Westerling, the daughter of Lady Sybell Spicer and Lord Gawen Westerling, marries Robb Stark after he has been crowned King in the North.[1] They try to become pregnant, as Robb's younger brothers Bran and Rickon are believed to have been killed by Theon Greyjoy,[citation needed] his sister Sansa is in the custody of Robb's enemies[citation needed] and his sister Arya is missing and believed to be dead.[citation needed]

Jeyne does not conceive before Robb leaves for the Twins for the wedding of his uncle, Lord Edmure Tully. Robb is killed at the Twins during the Red Wedding, after which Ser Jaime Lannister travels to Riverrun to lift the siege of Riverrun. Inside the castle, he comes face to face with Jeyne and her mother, who declares to have worked together with Lord Tywin Lannister.[citation needed]

Discrepancies between descriptions of Jeyne have resulted in speculation among the fandom that Jeyne might not have been the girl who Jaime met at Riverrun. Further speculation covers the possible reasons for such a switch.

Identity

Supporting evidence

The following pieces of information can be considered evidence for this theory:

  • Upon first meeting Jeyne, Catelyn Stark describes her appearance: "She was pretty, undeniably, with her chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, [...]".[1] The description of her hips does not match with Jaime Lannisters description of Jeyne following the capture of Riverrun by the Lannister forces: "Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child [...]".[2] This difference in description has resulted in the suggestion in the fandom that the girl Jaime meets is not actually Jeyne.

Counter arguments

The following pieces of information can be considered counter-evidence for this theory:

  • Several indications have been made that the discrepancy in the description of Jeyne's hips was an accidental mistake:
    • At the Union Square Signing in July 2011, George R. R. Martin reportedly stated that "the hips were a mistake unfortunately".[3]
    • According to Linda Antonsson, "George has apparently told people that it's a mistake".[4]
    • Current editions of A Feast for Crows have removed the reference to Jeyne's hips when meeting Jaime entirely, instead changing the passage into "Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child [...]". [5]

Motivation

The most frequently used argument for a motivation of switching Jeyne with an importer is the suggestion that she may have discovered she was pregnant after Robb's death.

Supporting evidence

The following pieces of information can be considered evidence for this theory:

  • According to Jeyne, her mother Sybell makes a posset for her, consisting of herbs, milk and ale, to help make her fertile.[6]

Counter arguments

The following pieces of information can be considered counter-evidence for this theory:

  • According to Lady Sybell, she made certain that Jeyne was not pregnant with Robb's child, on the orders of Lord Tywin Lannister.[2] The mobile application A World of Ice and Fire states that Sybell's posset prevented Jeyne from conceiving.[7][8]

Sybell's involvement

When exactly House Westerling's services against House Stark came to involve House Lannister is still unclear. The mobile application states that Sybell and her brother, Rolph Spicer, plot to trick Robb Stark into marrying Jeyne after he seizes the Crag,[8] by leaving Robb and Jeyne alone as much as possible, hoping "nature will take its course".[7] Whether this was done on the instructions of Lord Tywin Lannister, or whether Sybell and Rolph acted on their own and allied with Tywin later, is unknown.

Fans have further suggested an active involvement of Sybell by providing Robb Stark with a love potion. Sybell's grandmother was "Maggy", a priestess who used to be visited by half of Lannisport for "cures and love potions and the like", according to Kevan Lannister.[9] This background, in combination with her demonstrated knowledge of herbs and potions[6], make it plausible Sybell is aware of how to make a love potion and slipped one to Robb while he was recovering from his wounds at the Crag.

References