Talk: Brynden Rivers
Master of Whisperers
Was Bloodraven not Daeron II's master of whisperers? We know he was on the small council when the Blackfyre Rebellion broke out, and his rule as Hand was attributed to his use of spies. I thought there was a specific reference to him being master of whisperers. He could have retained the office when he was Hand; Ser Ryam Redwyne was Hand and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard at the same time.
Ran seems to think Spymaster is the more accurate term. I can't imagine why, but I assume he knows something we don't. --RumHam 17:39, 2 July 2014 (UTC) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105115-world-of-ice-and-fire-app-update/page-7#entry5737464
I've always assumed with everybody else that Maekar imprisoned him, but that's never actually established. (Unless I'm overlooking an SSM, but I looked.) The only time his imprisonment comes up is when Aemon talks about him being in his "honor guard." One detail in the History of Westerlands reading seems to cast doubt on the Maekar imprisoned him/Egg released him on his ascension theory. In any event a theory shouldn't be presented as fact, so I changed it. --RumHam 17:43, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
@Rhaenys Targaryen: "According to Maester Aemon, Bloodraven was imprisoned in the Red Keep's black cells for reasons unknown at an unknown time. His imprisonment ended in 233AC, when he was sent to the Wall by King Aegon V Targaryen, as part of the "honor guard" of prisoners that accompanied Aemon to the Night's Watch." This paragraph is based on the following passage: "Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers." (AFFC, Sam II) But this statement made by Aemon doesn't explicitly say that Bloodraven got imprisoned at all. It's just indicated, but you could also read it like "Brynden was part of my honor guard, but he didn't belong to the group of the former prisoners". And neither it's explicitly stated that the imprisonment ended in 233 (since it's not clear if he has been imprisoned at all). According to the reading about the Westerlands, Brynden led the Great Council in 233, suggesting that he took the black voluntarily. So I think, either you have to give a source explicitly stating your words or we have to find another formulation like "it's indicated by...". Looking forward to your cooperation. :) The Wondering Wolf 22:17, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- The quote you've provided ("Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers.") shows that the honor guard was made up from those who came out of the dungeons, no one else. Aemon identifies that Brynden was part of that honor guard, meaning that Brynden as well had been locked up.
- Aemon definitly states here that Brynden had been locked up. And while everyone previously believed that it had been Maekar who had locked Brynden into the cells (a statement that has no textual evidence), the Westerland reading should make it clear that this was not the case. In 232/233AC, at some point while the council was still going on, Brynden was still a free man. And suddenly, he is being send to the Wall from his captivity. Some information is missing here, that is obvious, but all suggests that Brynden was arrested, for unknown reasons, after the Great Council elected King Aegon V. The amount of time in between the Great Council ending and Aemon going to the Wall is unknown (though isn't Aemons age while arriving at the Wall stated as having been 35 somewhere? That indicated that he at least went to the Wall in 233AC), there could be a few months of captivity for Brynden in between. Or just a few days.
- If Aemons quote would have meant that Brynden had been the one person in the honor guard that had gone voluntarily, the sentence would have been different. This is the way the quote should be read:
"Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone." = All those who accompanied Aemon to the Wall had previously been in the cells. "My honor guard, he called them." = These criminals were dubbed "the honor guard" by Aegon. "One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers." = One of the people in the honor guard was Brynden Rivers. Seeing as how the honor guard was made up from the people who had occupied the dungeons, Brynden had thus occupied the dungeons himself as well.
- Had Aemon meant that Brynden had not been in the dungeons previously, he wouldn't say that the people who had occupied the dungeons had been his honor guard, and that Brynden had been a "member" of that honor guard.
- If you think that the wording should be adjusted of my passage, we can work it out :-) But Brynden definitly had been arrested, that much is clear, IMO.--Rhaenys_Targaryen 10:43, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I think, your interpretation is likely right, but I'd like to have it formulated more carefully. It's not the task of this wiki to interpretate a passage, it is just supposed to state what's written in the books or said by GRRM himself. And Aemon doesn't say "Once Brynden was arrested", he just makes a comment (strongly) indicating this. But by writing "According to Aemon" we present it as a fact, that's why I'd prefer a formulation like "it is strongly indicated by Aemon that...". So people can look for the source, read it themselves and make their own thoughts. The Wondering Wolf 19:18, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Alright, changed the wording. Let me know what you think.--Rhaenys_Targaryen 19:50, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I just changed the wording a little bit to show the connection between the introductory sentence and the following sentences. If you agree, we are done here. The Wondering Wolf 22:54, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- In that case, we are done :-) Because I agree!--Rhaenys_Targaryen 20:12, 31 August 2014 (UTC)