Talk:Battle of the Blackwater

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Strength Estimate

I am not sure that the current estimate of 20k to 86k is correct.

From Catelyn we know that Renly had about 80K troops and 10K more back at highgarden and iirc stannis had 5k and Tywin had 20K + KL defenders, which makes rough ~110k total(minus casualties, both sides sustained prior to their arrival). The part that we are unsure about is how many troops Renly took with him to strom's ends, it seems to me that the current estimate should be higher, otherwise I dont see how Stannis would be in a position to threatened KL after the "lake of fire". a 20-30k estimate sounds far more likely, minus a fifth of Renly's knights who lefter after Renly death should make it a 30k-ish? do we have any additional info/sources that I have missed, from which we can learn more? --Mor 04:04, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Stannis states he has 20,000 men in Davos II. Benethon Stark 04:59, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
He did have that - former Renlys vanguard. Plus his initial host (considering crewmen) - about another 20,000 in total.
He had that in total with him at Storm's End after Renly's vanguard went over. Nearly 5,000 he started with, and presumably a little over 15,000 (4/5ths) of Renly's vanguard. His boat crewmen aren't counted because they weren't used as foot, and their value is counted with their ships. Same for Joffrey's side. Benethon Stark 20:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Further, please sign your comments if you're going to be editing. Renly had 60,000+ men at Bitterbridge, and Tywin Lannister almost 20,000. The two combined and took Stannis in the flank. Benethon Stark 21:00, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the confusion itself is very consistent with the difficulties historians face in trying to determine the size of battles. Primary sources are often unreliable about strength because of differing motivations. --Crackclaw 23:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

"Stannis would have reached the Rush days ago. The kingsroad ran from Storm’s End straight to King’s Landing, a much shorter route than by sea, and his host was largely mounted;"
Stannis had ~20,000 men at Storm's End. We have Stannis' own word when he refuses single combat to Penrose. This is before he had to place troops on the ships to form the landing party. Because his force was mostly mounted (~16,000, after Loras and Tarly took ~4,000 back), he could use that to cross the distance fast to KL fast. Nyrhex 22:35, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Breakdown of Stannis' Fleet

A breakdown of Davos III gives us that the first 3 lines of 20 war galleys were of Westerosi origin. Davos is in the second row, and behind him is another row of hundreds. Behind the first 3 lines is the smaller Myrish contingent, then the sail ships, then Saan's ships. Saan is later (ADWD, Davos I) mentioned as having 29 ships at the Wall (30 in total including the Mad Prendos which took Edric to Lys), the slight increase from the 25 galleys he has in ACOK, Davos I can easily be explained by the fact that Saan also has a few cogs in his service. At least one, the Saathos Saan, sinks on the way south from the Wall. The Myrish contingent being smaller than the Westerosi gives the impression of less than 50, otherwise it would be almost the same size, and less likely for Davos to say that it is smaller. ~40 fits 2 battle lines. That leaves the sail ships with an uneven number of ~70, but we can't have everything be nice and round, and by the time the first 160 ships enter, a battle line would have to split up to leave 10 ships with Saan for his uneven 30. Stannis' lords only got him 9 ships (Velaryon: Pride of Driftmark, Bold Laughter, Harridan, and Seahorse. Celtigar: Red Claw. Bar Emmon: Swordfish. Sunglass: Piety, Prayer, and Devotion), which leaves the other 51 as those of the Royal Navy. Stannis' 200 ships being 4 times more than Joffrey's leaves 50, which together with Stannis' portion makes for 100 war galleys for the Royal Navy, a nice mirror for the Iron Fleet's 100 ships.--Nyrhex (talk) 16:06, 4 March 2016 (CST)


I am working on a very basic map, it can be much better but it would be a good placeholder until some one with more skill comes along. If that is alright of course. --The Hedge Knight 23:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

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