Talk:Robb Stark

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Kinslayer

Why is the category "Kinslayer" added to Robb's page?--Rhaenys_Targaryen 09:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

See conversations at Category_talk:Kinslayers and Talk:Black_Walder_Frey. Personally I don't like it as it leads to confusion (and indeed did in Black Walder's case), and that's why I didn't categorise anyone that I listed in the Kinslayer talk page, but I also appreciate where Scafloc's coming from. --8dave 12:21, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Stark and Karstark are only very, very distantly related, though. In that same sense that most of the Great Houses in Westeros are now related to one another. However, should a Lannister kill a Baratheon, that isn't seen a kinslaying. So while I understand why all those others are on the list, I don't think that Robb belongs on there.--Rhaenys_Targaryen 15:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree, however the category criteria is "Characters accused (proven or not)", and that of course includes Robb (as well as Theon, Black Walder, Euron, Axell Florent, and Ramsay). I don't like Robb having the label "kinslayer", but also feel that arbitrarily ignoring the category criteria isn't good editorial policy. Perhaps instead using a category name like "Accused kinslayers" or "Known and accused kinslayers" would go a long way to resolving the conflict–it avoids the original research that having two categories, or changing the category criteria, results in, and means the likes of Robb doesn't have the seemingly definitive "kinslayer" label at the foot of his article. --8dave 15:05, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
In part, I agree with what you are saying. I've discussed this before (I think on the category-talk page, and a suggestion made there about making two categories ("Kinslayers" and "Suspected Kingslayers") was shot down, I seem to recall. And while I totally get the criteria, I am in doubt about whether Robb truly belongs in the list. Ramsay has been suspected of having killed his brother, Euron his brother, Walder his father, Theon is suspected of having killed his foster-brothers (Axell isn't in the list, I see, and I can't recell who he killed.. Are we talking about Alester's death here?). But all of these people are suspected of having killed their close relatives, no matter if they are relatives by blood (Walder/Ryman, Euron/Balon, Ramsay/Domeric) or by way of raising (Theon/Bran&Rickon). Rickard Karstark tells Robb that they are distantly related (going back hundreds of years).. Does that truly make them kin? Because in that case, Half the nobility of Westeros is related.. Robert Baratheon isn't listed as a kinslayer, while he killed Rhaegar. I don't know if he was just accidentally omitted from the list, or whether that was done with a purpose, but Robert and Rhaegar are actually related by blood, recently (being second cousins). Just that the Karstarks are the descendents of a Stark from a long time ago, and just because Rickard uses such an argument to call Robb a kinslayer, doesn't mean that they actually count as family. It seems to me that perhaps Rickard was just trying to shame Robb as much as he possibly could before he died. However, if other people feel very strongly about keeping Robb in the list, than I am fine with that, of course :-) I just thought that this might need a closer look.--Rhaenys_Targaryen 15:40, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
It's not that I want to keep Robb in the list (he isn't a kinslayer), but rather that he nonetheless fits the stated category criteria, and I feel that arbitrarily excluding articles despite that is editorially inappropriate. That said, my problem is with the category rather than whether it should be applied to the article, so I'll post my concerns in Category_talk:Kinslayers instead (soon). In the meantime I've removed the category from the article (though I didn't add it, we do both have a problem with it).
That aside, it was I who "shot down" your previous suggestion (it was in Talk:Black Walder Frey). I just felt ambivalent and didn't mean to be dismissive. Apologies if it was, no offence intended. :) --8dave 03:50, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Haha, no offence taken ;) It might be a good idea to see how closely related two people would have to be in order to be seen as a kinslayer. Would Robert count as a kinslayer because he killed his second cousin Rhaegar? Rhaegar refered to Robert as a "cousin", so he at least saw Robert as a family member, reasonably close. Robb and Lord Rickard seem to not have felt about each other that way. Perhaps that can be adressed in Category_talk:Kinslayers as well.. When you start posting there, I'll join in there ;) --Rhaenys_Targaryen 20:15, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi, with my remark on the Category_talk:Kinslayers I meant that as Kinslaying carries a stigma that category should be applied to the characters that are considered kinslayers by Westeros people. "Considered" and the "Westeros people" are of course arbitrary but my main point was to is that is not for us, the editors, to judge whether the accusation is justified (-> how close should the family link be) but to determine what if the label sticks. So if we apply this principle to the accusation of Rickard Stark we should check whether it sticks (by the standard of Westeros). If the books makes mention of a considerable part of the Westerosi people who are calling Robb Stark a kinslayer we should add him to the category even though we may feel that this is not justified. But for Robb I think we can conclude as Rhaenys Targaryen already pointed out it does not stick so Robb should not be within the category. Scafloc 11:18, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Quotes

There are differences of opinion about the number of quotes that are shown on this page (and probably for others as well). The page is protected until this is solved. Please state your arguments and no personal attacks! Scafloc 11:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why we need a page full of quotes both by and about Robb that essentially state the same thing. How many quotes do we need to establish that Robb is losing the war despite winning every battle? What my esteemed editor is not understanding is that this is not a personal attack; I'm not anti-Robb, anti-quote or even anti-Marco (yet), I'm simply trying to compact them into something more streamlined The quotes that remained after my edit were suitable enough for anyone to be able to glance and gain an insight into the kind of character he's portrayed as in the books. There are problems with excessive quotes on many pages, and my quote happy friend here is responsible for most of them (Stannis, for example). Winter is coming to the quote section.

I've placed this in bold, for obvious reasons.

Please note that all contributions to A Wiki of Ice and Fire are considered to be released under the CC-BY-SA (see A Wiki of Ice and Fire:Copyrights for details). If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here.

--TimeForChilli 12:38, 12 August 2013 (UTC)



Thanks for that opportunity to talk Scafloc

for quotes, i think we should look at other pages too firstly, example, Stannis Baratheon page

some popular characters deserve this quotes, i didn't change any stannis quotes (maybe one or two) but there is lots of them when i found that page (this newbie timeforchilli is blaming me for that too look he has no idea about this wiki) and robb page has none quote when i found, after that i open even a topic in forum, so i find some of them, and work on them but this TimeForChilli saying 'i don't care your works' like he is a boss here (funny thing) and erasing this works, i don't understand why it is problem for any body who isn't anti-robb fan , people are looking this page for information and this quotes give them what they needs. thanks again. regards marco --Marco 13:00, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

How much quotes are ok?

Please no personal attacks. That includes suggestion about the lack of good faith of other users. After your shouting match it is not strange that booth of you still feel some resentment to the other but expressing that is not getting us anywhere.
I think the problem here is that is no clear policy about the number of quotes. This post is the first that addresses quotes. For me then the idea was: quotes are ok but not too much. You can see that the post is from 4 years ago and what was "too much" was never exactly specified. So Marco never went against any rules. He even asked for feedback on the forum. As only one person replied (and positively) he was perfectly justified in adding his quotes. On the other hand TimeForChilli has all right to question the uses of quotes; there still is no policy (just two remarks) and even if there was a policy you can always make suggestions for changes.

As I read it TimeForChilli does not question that quotes are being used but he argues against the number of quotes on the page. Marco argues that the quotes are suitable.
@Marco do you agree that there is a maximum (absolute or relative to the length of the page) to the number of quotes that can be used? If not then the difference is too much and then we should take the discussion to the forum. If you agree to a maximum then can you specify what that is?
@TimeForChilli what do you think is the maximum? And what quotes would you find suitable on the Robb Stark page. If you do not find any quotes suitable then the differences of opinion are unbridgeable and we should take this to the forum. I look forward to your reactions. And again no personal attacks, no suggestion of bad faith. Scafloc 20:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


You are right, I have no problem with quotes; only their excessive use and questionable content. As it stands right now, Robb has 18 quotes both by and about. By comparison, Ned has 16. See the problem? We should bear in mind that, as popular as Robb may be, he was not a POV character. As for suitable content, how many times do we need to read that he is losing the battle but winning the war? Quotes should offer a small insight into the character as depicted in the books, not give away plots. Not all readers (or viewers, in Marco's case) are up to the same point in the books. A quick glance at a quote on Robbs page potentially reveals: the deaths of Rickard Karstark (at Robb's hand) Tion Frey and Willem Lannister, and Robb's infidelity. In other words, too much. According to Marco the Kid, many (one) people are wildly in love with this idea, however:

people want to read this quotes, different persons talking about robb about different matters, as long as people love this quotes i will add it

What I was able to translate from that is "People love quotes, Therefore I will add 50". This is not Wikiquote, where an entire story is placed in point form. 10-12 quotes (total) for POV characters, 5 quotes (total) for the rest should to be more then adequate. However, perhaps a separate tab could be arranged for quotes? I would be willing to contribute/moderate/assist in something like that.

--TimeForChilli 22:32, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Giving someone a nickname is a personal and if it is not flattering then it is an attack. I have stated a number of times that this is not allowed. Do not ignore this! Also do not go into his motives. Just the arguments please!
For your suggestions:
  • what you are saying is that there should not be multiple quotes about one topic; for instance Robb losing the war.
  • Another suggestion is that quotes should not contain spoilers. Spoilers have been discussed on the forum. The short summary is that they cannot be entirely evided. By having the article structure in paragraphs per book we can avoid some spoilers. In that regard having a separate paragraph after the paragraph discussing the books we can avoid the worst spoilers. Again feel free to address the spoiler policy. If you want to do that please do it on the forum as it has been discussed there before.
  • And as for the numbers: 10 - 12 for POV characters, 5 for others. Right?
Scafloc 05:36, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


Maximum Number

I don't agree about Pov and not Pov differences. Stannis and Robb has no pov but they have many part in this book, and very popular characters, like Robert Baratheon like Tywin Lannister etc.... on the other hand there are some Pov characters many people dislike about it, like Cersei, Victorian, Theon(Reek) etc...

For maximum quote number i agree, if TimeForChilli want to edit all of them, otherwise he shouldn't enter here like a boss and only changing robb page.

-I propose for all characters maximum 10 for 'by' and 10 for 'about' : total maximum 20 is ok for me, he was saying there is 50 quote but he never look attention to it i suppose, it was never exist 50 quote in there. --Marco 11:14, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  • what you are saying is that there should not be multiple quotes about one topic; for instance Robb losing the war. Put simply: Yes. There will need to be exceptions for this, of course. Melisandre and Moqorro have a large amount of dialogue regarding R'hollor, for example.
  • Another suggestion is that quotes should not contain spoilers. Spoilers have been discussed on the forum. The short summary is that they cannot be entirely evided. By having the article structure in paragraphs per book we can avoid some spoilers. In that regard having a separate paragraph after the paragraph discussing the books we can avoid the worst spoilers. Again feel free to address the spoiler policy. If you want to do that please do it on the forum as it has been discussed there before. Spoilers on this site are unavoidable. What is avoidable, however, is people have that kind of information thrust in their face in quoted italics. Wylla Manderly quoting "He was our king! He was brave and just.." on Robbs page is an example of this. The fact that she is talking in past tense implies that Robb is no longer around. A newer reader may be able to realise this, but would likely have no idea even who Wylla is. This is a small spoiler. Reading something like "Jaime Lanniser sends his regards", on the other hand, has a massive spoiler potential, especially considering who said it. You get the idea.
  • And as for the numbers: 10 - 12 for POV characters, 5 for others. Right? Right. 5-7 is fine. Doubtless there will be some non-POV characters (Sandor, for example) who are more deserving of more quotes than others (Podrick, for instance).

--TimeForChilli 11:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


Opportunity for Poll

@Scafloc is there a oppportunity for poll in forum ? (since only moderators can open polls i suppose) Asking for others opinions is important for me, lets ask them for popular characters quote numbers 5-7 , 10-12, 15 or 20, any result after one weak or 3 days poll, i will agree with any result from poll. --Marco 12:46, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

There is no system feature for it but we can post the suggestion and everybody can react with their choice. I will ad a post for it. Booth of you correct me if my interpretation is not correct. It took me some effort to see who posted what. In the post I will include the discussion about the spoilers. I think this has more to do with spoiler policy but it does not hurt to ask the opinion of other users. OK?Scafloc 19:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
I added a post to the Quotes about Robb Stark post on the forum. It tried to present the suggestions of booth as coherently as I could. If I forgot things or did not represent them correct feel free to add your thoughts and of course add your own choices! Scafloc 20:01, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Opinion

@Scafloc. Some of the pages have long conservations in the Quote sections instead of a few simple phrases. I think quotes should be direct quotes by the Character or about the character, not long conversations. I think the quotes should be the most memorable lines in the series or quotes that sum up the Character very well.

Example: Varys quote about Stannis "There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man".

Or Tyrions quote about Tywin. "Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile, he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold".

Both these quotes add brilliant insight and depth into the characters they are describing.

Thats just my opinion anyway. Hope it is helpful. ~ Arek

Picture to add

Christine Griffin RobbS.jpg

I would like to add this picture to the article. I think it is very similar to how Robb is supposed to look in the books and the article would benefit from it. --Lord Thornhart 18:45, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

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