Talk: Sansa Stark
Littlefinger's claim of paternity?
Littlefinger repeated hints at, and then outright claims his paternity to Sansa while with her in the Eyrie. Is there any supporting evidence to such a claim? We hear how Sansa, alone of her siblings, takes after the Tully side. But nowhere do I recall any mention of a resemblance to Littlefinger. Do we know whether Littlefinger might have had an opportunity to father Sansa on Catelyn? I don't recall any mention of them travelling together. This whole line seems like a self-induced delusion of some sort. However that seems odd coming from such a clear-eyed character like Littlefinger. Is there an examination of this claim anywhere? Anyone care to speculate? Ronnotel 03:29, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps a bit late, but still... Robb, Bran, and Rickon also look like Tully's. Actually, only Arya, out of all of Catelyn's children, looks like Ned, and not like Catelyn. There was absolutely no moment that LF could have fathered Sansa on Catelyn. For one, Catelyn has never cheated on Ned. Second, when Catelyn sees LF in 298AC in KL, she hasn't seen him since the duel he fought against Brandon.
- Littlefinger is thinking more along the lines of the fact that Sansa could have his daughter if he had won the duel, and married Cat. But he definitly is not Sansa's father. It's simply not possible. --Rhaenys_Targaryen 21:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
What banner should display in the upper right of Sansa's infobox? (the upper left is a Stark banner, her House of origin).
Currently, it is a Lannnister lion sigil - but this seems to be misleading, given that her marriage to Tyrion was forced and unconsummated, neither Tyrion nor Sansa really consider it to have been "real", and she has escaped from the Lannisters - it wasn't really legally or religiously binding. Neither party really wants to pursue it anymore, textbook annulment.
As is my understanding, the right-hand infobox sigil denotes "allegiance" - which for married women usually means the House they married into (i.e. Catelyn Tully has a Tully sigil on the left and a Stark sigil on the right). "Allegiance" and not just marriage is a bit more complicated, though.
I think there are basically four options:
- House Stark banner - switching back to her original House colors as an unmarried (essentially) maiden
- House Lannister banner - continue to use this banner in reference to her forced and unconsummated marriage to Tyrion, despite the fact that it wasn't really binding, doesn't show her "political allegiance" at this point, and has little impact on the story.
- House Baelish - to show that she is an "agent of House Baelish" for the time being.
- House Arryn - given her vague "allegiance" to the household of Robert Arryn of the Eyrie; I do think that, if the plan to marry Sansa to Harry the Heir goes through in the next novel, we should then switch the banner to House Arryn (marriage supersedes an allegiance banner, I think). However, that marriage has not happened yet.
As a result, I think that we should definitely switch out the Lannister banner to something else. In addition, I think it makes more sense to replace it with the House Baelish sigil, given that Sansa's current allegiance seems to be Littlefinger.--The Dragon Demands 02:03, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- Allegiances, for so far as I know, are simply stated in the info box. The banners above the infobox are of the House the person belongs to (in Sansa's case, House Stark), and the House said person is 1) married into, or 2) an order, like the Night's Watch, or the Goldcloaks, or the Kingsguard, or, 3) the the case of bastards or people with from a house with their own personal sigil, said sigil is used (examples are Brynden Tully, who has both the sigils of House Tully, and his own sigil as the Blackfish, above his infobox; Walder Rivers, a bastard of Walder Frey, who holds both the sigil of the Twins, and a bastardry sigil of his own; Jon Snow, who holds a bastardry sigil, as he is a bastard of House Stark, and the black sigil of the NW, while prior to joining the NW, he would have held the sigils of House Stark, and the bastard sigil). Those sigils are not, for as far as I can tell, about which house someone might have sworn loyalty to. In any case, Sansa has not sworn loyalty to House Baelish, yet she is married into House Lannister. The Lannister sigil would, I guess, be most appropriate and correct on her page.
- Think about other sham-marriages. Jeyne Poole to Ramsay Bolton. She has the sigil of Bolton, where Sansa has the sigil of House Lannister, as well as her own House sigil, as is appropriate. The same goes for Lady Ermesande Hayford, married before her first nameday to Tyrek Lannister. She holds both the sigil of her own House, as well as the sigil of House Lannister. Her marriage is more a sham marriage than Sansa's.--Rhaenys_Targaryen 10:44, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Well in that case, I think she should revert back to Stark banners. Jeyne was...unfortunately, consummated, and while Hayford was married off as an infant, her family and husband consider it to be binding. I don't think we have a universal standard for "women who ran off and never consummated their marriage". Ermesande isn't as much of a sham...considering marriage-alliances to be a political union between two families and not a living/spiritual action, Ermesande was the last of her family, so her household wasn't actively opposed to it. In contrast, the current head of House Stark - her brother Robb - openly opposed the union, as did her mother. The head of a household can oppose a union (as Tywin annulled Tyrion's marriage to Tysha, at least from a legal standpoint) or force children to marry against their will (well not officially, but functionally). What sets Sansa apart is that the heads of her family opposed the union as well.
...wait...here's a question: would Asha Greyjoy be given the upper-right-hand banner of House Ironmaker, if we knew what the Ironmaker sigil looked like? She was married in absentia against her will, and the marriage was never consummated.--The Dragon Demands 22:21, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not convinced a father has legal authority to annul or block the marriage of his children. The Tyrion/Tywin thing is one example, but Tywin is not your average lord. He also has been known to exceed his legal authority or ignore the law when it gets in his way. Anyway I think the issue of Robb's approval of Sansa's marriage is moot, as the King's authority supersedes that of her family.--RumHam 18:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- @The Dragon Demands, Ermesande's marriage to Tyrek definitly falls into the same sort of category as Sansa's. Neither could object, nor had family to object. Neither marriage was consumated, yet considered valid (Robb mentions that Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is a true marriage. He doesn't like it, he hates it, but he seems to consider the match legal).
- Asha should indeed receive the banner of her husband, if he has one (and we learn about it).--Rhaenys_Targaryen 19:56, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Well okay then, as long as we're being consistent for all three of them. Ah, okay, Robb himself thought it was a real marriage. (Tangent: I think Tyrek did have family as Tywin was his father's older brother and thus pater familias, but that's just academic).--The Dragon Demands 03:54, 27 September 2014 (UTC)