Editing User talk:Mindset (section)

== The She-Wolves of Winterfell ==

Hi,
I am looking at the source used for this claim:
"There may be a House Stark succession crisis, a struggle for power among the ladies on behalf of their children."
I am aware that the source used earlier in The She-Wolves of Winterfell article was the wrong one (I apologize for my sloppy edit earlier), however I think that this source still doesn't suggest this.

As far as I see information in the linked sources, it does not mention the Stark widows making claim on behalf of their children, only that there are lots of kids around at that time and that five widows of previous Lord Starks are involved.

Furthermore, two of the recent Stark widows are childless with three others being respectively mother, grandmother and great-grandmother of Beron's sons which would beg the question who are the children that these ladies are fighting for.--[[User:Paxter Redwyne|Paxter Redwyne]] ([[User talk:Paxter Redwyne|talk]]) 15:14, 15 August 2025 (UTC)

:Hey! So no worries re the editing of [[The She-Wolves of Winterfell]], I was checking the page history and the second source got accidentally removed some years ago. Easy fix. As for the source content, the power struggle is mentioned, as are the many children -- and that's how noble women in Westeros fight for power, through their children. The complex family tree at the time (as revealed in TWOIAF), due to the [[:Template: Cregan Stark tree|many descendants of Cregan Stark]], such as his eldest son's daughters who may have been "robbed" of their inheritance ("robbed" in that they had a right but Cregan may not have wanted a woman to follow him as there has never been any ruling Lady of Winterfell), and his many sons from his third wife, some who became lords of Winterfell (with or without children), would mean that their various descendants all have an arguable claim for the lordship. (See GRRM's comments about "precedence or proximity" [https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents here].) For example, [[Serena Stark|Serena]] (one of said daughters) could argue that even though her husband [[Edric Stark (son of Cregan)|Edric]] (evidently) died before his older brother Lord [[Jonnel Stark|Jonnel]] did and before his younger brothers [[Barthogan Stark|Barthogan]] or [[Brandon Stark (son of Cregan)|Brandon]] became the lord, Edric's sons [[Cregard Stark|Cregard]] and [[Torrhen Stark (son of Edric)|Torrhen]] had a better right than Brandon or Brandon's son Beron did. The messiness of the whole situation is implicit in GRRM saying (paraphrased) "things were not so good". Also, the She-Wolves are not just "widows", per GRRM they are "formidable Stark wives, widows, mothers, and grandmothers". See [https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/156581-new-information-on-the-historical-starks/&do=findComment&comment=8496281 this forum post], which also talks about the "widows" misapprehension. Hope that helps! --[[User:Mindset|Mindset]] ([[User talk:Mindset|talk]]) 00:45, 16 August 2025 (UTC)

:Oh, and for that matter, the fact that Brandon was Cregan's fourth son by Lynara (fifth altogether), who got the lordship despite having many older brothers with children (and that Beron was a second son, and that Beron's own second son Willam is the one who the Stark lineage will go through) is a perfect historical irony for Egg's own future situation, becoming king despite being the fourth son of a fourth son, which is undoubtedly why this is a Dunk & Egg story to begin with. Except there was evidently no Great Council in this case, just Dunk and Egg visiting Winterfell and getting into trouble (and solving it) as they usually do. --[[User:Mindset|Mindset]] ([[User talk:Mindset|talk]]) 00:56, 16 August 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you for your reply. I am perfectly aware of all of this, however the paraphrased sources indeed do not mention specifically that the women struggling for power are doing it for their children specifically, only that there were lots of kids at that time making the Stark line safe. In regars to "formidable Stark wives, widows, mothers, and grandmothers", it does not specify that all of them had issue and the phrase 'children' seems to imply that most if not all of these were underage, while Serena's progeny are likely all grown by the time of the struggle (unless there are some chronological errors involved), closer in age to Beron than his kids with Serena's good-sons described as "loyal lords" according to Elio. I think this article should simply be reworded a bit to clarify which portions come from GRRM or semi-canon sources vs fan speculation; Btw I too think that this conflict is most likely revolving around the struggle between Beron's and Serena's branches (possibly widow Lady Starks quarrelling over regency since they are described as 'running the Winterfell' while another branch tries to seize power from outside), however we don't actually have much from GRRM to cite for here, so it remains mostly a speculation for now.--[[User:Paxter Redwyne|Paxter Redwyne]] ([[User talk:Paxter Redwyne|talk]]) 10:13, 16 August 2025 (UTC)