Talk: Age of the Hundred Kingdoms

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The article states, "The Age of the Hundred Kingdoms was the broad period of Westerosi history set between the Andal Invasion and the Targaryen Conquest." Is this accurate?

During Chi-Con in 2012, GRRM mentioned (semi-canon) that "we're still working out the format [of TWOIAF] so please, if any of you are recording this, know this is subject to change ... setting down the history of Westeros, and the ages before Westeros: the Dawn Age, and the Age of Heroes, and the Age of the Hundred Kingdoms..."

In TWOIAF "The North", Yandel mentions the Hundred Kingdoms but does not specify the time period.

Just as we speak of the Hundred Kingdoms of yore, though there was never a time when Westeros was actually divided into a hundred independent states, we must bow to common usage and talk of the Seven Kingdoms, despite the imprecision.

In AGOT "Bran VII", Luwin explains

The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes ... So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

In AGOT "Bran IV", Old Nan talks of the "hundred kingdoms" during the Long Night.

Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest.

In AGOT "Jon VIII", Aemon speaks of the Night's Watch being formed by men from a hundred kingdoms.

Yet brothers they had, and sisters. Mothers who gave them birth, fathers who gave them names. They came from a hundred quarrelsome kingdoms, and they knew times may change, but men do not. So they pledged as well that the Night's Watch would take no part in the battles of the realms it guarded.

In TWOIAF "The Conquest", Yandel writes:

In the days of the Hundred Kingdoms, many petty kings had claimed dominion over the river mouth, amongst them the Darklyn kings of Duskendale, the Masseys of Stonedance, and the river kings of old, be they Mudds, Fishers, Brackens, Blackwoods, or Hooks.

This confirms First Men dynasties existed during the Hundred Kingdoms prior to the Andal invasion. The last Massey king, Josua Softspear, was killed by Qarlton II Durrandon shortly before the Andals and Storm Kings fought. Darklyn kings fought fought Monfryd I Durrandon before the Andal invasion and later the Andal Togarion Bar Emmon.

In TWOIAF "The Riverlands" Yandel writes:

The Blackwoods and Brackens both claim to have ruled the riverlands at various times during the Age of Heroes.

The Blackwoods and Brackens were kings during the Age of Heroes and the Hundred Kingdoms, so the two ages appear to overlap.

In TWOIAF "The Stormlands: Andals in the Stormlands", Yandel writes that the Durrandons conquered the riverlands during the Age of the Hundred Kingdoms, so the era extended at least until a few centuries prior to Aegon's Conquest (since the Storm Kings ruled the riverlands for three centuries).

House Durrandon reached its greatest heights in the epoch that followed. During the Age of the Hundred Kingdoms, King Arlan I (the Avenger) swept all before him, extending the borders of his kingdom as far as the Blackwater Rush and the headwaters of the Mander.

GRRM has been vague about ancient history ("everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later", "Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend"), but these suggest to me that

  • the Hundred Kingdoms began after the signing of the Pact and the start of the Age of Heroes (Luwin's history and GRRM's semi-canon statement);
  • the Hundred Kingdoms overlapped the Age of Heroes, existing during the Long Night (Old Nan's story) and before the Andal invasion (because of the river dynasties, Darklyns, Masseys);
  • and that the Hundred Kingdoms extended into centuries closer to the Seven Kingdoms of Aegon's Conquest (because of Arlan the Avenger and the relatively recent unification of Dorne). Nittanian (talk) 17:38, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
Reports from that era are spotty, at best.
....actually this is a great writeup, and a great question for the forum thread. The Arlan the Avenger entry seems to treat it as "the epoch that followed the Age of Heroes", but the others use the term loosely.
...what's the alternative? That there was some sort of "Age of the Seven Kingdoms" starting around 2,000 years ago, after they all unified? Does the period between the Andal Invasion and Targaryen Conquest even have a name? I think we should kick this question to the higher-ups, Elio & Linda or GRRM.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:40, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
I think that the bolded part of the statement "The Age of the Hundred Kingdoms was the broad period of Westerosi history set between the Andal Invasion and the Targaryen Conquest." should be altered. Several of the quotes that Nittanian provided above indicate (or confirm) that the Age of the Hundred Kingdoms began before the Andals crossed the sea, and since we do not know when this time period ended exactly, we should not state an end-time (Aegon's Conquest) in the article either. Perhaps change it into something like "The Age of the Hundred Kingdoms was a broad period of Westerosi history. It began some time prior to the Long Night, and possibly overlaps with the Age of Heroes. Though it is not known when exactly the Age of the Hunderd Kingdoms ended, the period lasted at least until several centuries before Aegon's Conquest. (the cursive parts are the changed parts). With the use of notes and references, we can explain which quotes indicate what parts of the information.
Additionally, since we do not know the exact start and end time of this period, perhaps the timeline listed in the overview is best to be removed. The information is already stated quite complete on the Timeline of major events, so perhaps we could link there instead? Especially since we do not know how long before Aegon's Conquest the Age of the Hundred Kingdoms ended. Several of the events in the timeline on this page (the Valyrians taking control of Dragonstone, the Targaryen migration to Dragonstone, the Doom of Valyria and the conquest of the riverlands by House Hoare) cannot be confirmed to still be counted as having occurred in the Age of the Hundred Kingdoms, unless I'm forgetting a quote (and if I am, please let me know). Arlan I expanding his domain to cover the Blackwater Rush and the headwaters of the Mander is I think the last event we know for certain to have occurred during this time period. --Rhaenys Targaryen (talk) 09:29, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree that the information in the History subsection would be better suited for the dedicated Timeline article. Nittanian (talk) 17:35, 20 June 2017 (UTC)