Talk: Paramour
From A Wiki of Ice and Fire
Regarding nobility
According to Wiktionary, a paramour is simply an illicit lover, having nothing to do with nobility, and I haven't seen anything in A Song of Ice and Fire that suggests it is otherwise there, though I could be mistaken. My understanding was that the word implied that one of the partners was high in status, but that it is not needed for the word to be used. What does everyone else think? --Aseld 18:30, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
- I think this article is speculating a bit as it stands, so I wouldn't object to a rewrite. Mistermanticore 20:00, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
- What is speculative about it? it's basically a word for word description of Tyrion's thoughts from the books, plus a few examples (Cersei's reaction) - doesn't the description in a aSoS say that a paramour - in this context - is basically lord's mistress, and given some cachet because of that?--Arianne of sunspear 20:51, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
- Well, I couldn't find any mention of paramours having status within Dorne per se. The disapproval that Cersei and the Faith would have is a given, but the reaction in Dorne is a bit iffy. It might just be Oberyn's own preference. Mistermanticore 22:17, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
- Yeah, I don't recall any specific mention of paramours having status in Dorne. Oberyn seems to forge his own road and Dorne might just tolerate it because he's popular there. As far as whether the term would apply to a peasant lover of another peasant, I very much doubt it. There's no question of social standing in that situation, and the aristocracy doesn't generally pay attention to marriages between smallfolk, so there would be no real need for the term to apply to that situation. The article could be reworded slightly to avoid any assumption at all, but I don't think it's a big deal. -Oorag 22:51, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
- More importantly, perhaps, is that most peasants couldn't afford to keep another woman. Rich merchants are another matter though. Mistermanticore 23:27, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
- Well, to be fair, a paramour wouldn't have to be a lover aside from one's a wife. It'd just be a lover you don't marry. Smallfolk can afford not to marry. The problem is that no one would care enough to call them paramours, so the term wouldn't apply by common usage. -Oorag 23:36, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
- More importantly, perhaps, is that most peasants couldn't afford to keep another woman. Rich merchants are another matter though. Mistermanticore 23:27, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
- Yeah, I don't recall any specific mention of paramours having status in Dorne. Oberyn seems to forge his own road and Dorne might just tolerate it because he's popular there. As far as whether the term would apply to a peasant lover of another peasant, I very much doubt it. There's no question of social standing in that situation, and the aristocracy doesn't generally pay attention to marriages between smallfolk, so there would be no real need for the term to apply to that situation. The article could be reworded slightly to avoid any assumption at all, but I don't think it's a big deal. -Oorag 22:51, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
- Well, I couldn't find any mention of paramours having status within Dorne per se. The disapproval that Cersei and the Faith would have is a given, but the reaction in Dorne is a bit iffy. It might just be Oberyn's own preference. Mistermanticore 22:17, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
- I think it's probable that GRRM intends for the Dornish to see paramours as being somewhat more legitimate forms of mistresses/lovers than what the rest of the Seven Kingdoms tends to see. The fact that "paramour" was introduced by Oberyn, and has almost entirely been confined to the Dornishmen in usage, suggests it's a particular Dornish notion. The one example of a non-Dornishman talking about it in a non-Dornish context in the books is Samwell referring to the Citadel not letting novices keeps "wives or paramours". The other example is Egg in "The Sworn Sword" referring to Lady Shiera as Bloodraven's paramour, but to what degree this usage is a Dornish influence (after all, Egg's grandmother was a Dornishwoman) is unclear.
- All that said, "probable" and "suggests" does mean it's a bit speculative. A rewrite just to soften the speculative bit would be appropriate, maybe hedging it by saying that it "seems" to be such and such in Dorne. --Ran 09:02, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
- What is speculative about it? it's basically a word for word description of Tyrion's thoughts from the books, plus a few examples (Cersei's reaction) - doesn't the description in a aSoS say that a paramour - in this context - is basically lord's mistress, and given some cachet because of that?--Arianne of sunspear 20:51, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
Number of paramours / paramours ans spouses
Just for interest, how many paramours can a nobleman/nobelwoman have? And is it appropriate to have a spouse AND paramour(s)? In the reality it was custom for a sovereign to have a queen-wife AND mistresses.--Exodianecross 17:20, 13 March 2015 (UTC)